Gish-esq Feat

Giraffeking · Post by **Giraffeking** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:07 am

Gish v3
Pre-reqs: Character level 4

For every 4 levels you have in wizard or any other class with poor BaB progression, you gain a special +1 bonus to hit on all attacks granted by BaB. (So not on natural attacks, but most every other)

Choose one spell casting progression, for every 4 levels you take that do not progress your spell caster level, you gain +1 CL for everything but adding new spells or spells per day.

You also gain the ability to store a spell or spell-like ability in your weapon, this is on top of any other enchantments it may haven. When storing a spell this way, pick any one spell you know, of spell level 3 or lower that initially targets a single target other than yourself, even it if can bounce to hit multiple targets thereafter (such as chain lightening, but excluding fireball) and cast it into the weapon, spending the spell slot or use of your ability. You may store up to one spell like this at a time, and only a total number of times per day equal to the half your level rounded up (min 4). After storing a spell, if you hit someone in combat with your weapon, before you roll for damage, you may choose to have the spell strike them, and it automatically hits but they are still given a fort or will save if the spell allows. They are denied any reflex saves the spell might allow.

What do you think?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:35 am

Giraffeking wrote: What do you think?

I think you should stop.

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:11 am

To expand on what Koumei said, potentially casting three or four of your highest level spells during the first round of combat is stupid.

Every single one of those abilities is extremely problematic, except maybe the +1 ability, but there's no reason to get this feat on someone other than a full caster.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:25 am

I see you come from the Pathfinder "Castermensch" school of game design.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:31 am

I'll expand on my previous post, as much as I like the succinctness. The day someone makes a feat that makes "Wizard/Fighter" work well but is not just a flat-out upgrade to a Wizard without the /Fighter, or to a straight Cleric, I will be surprised. That is the day that I'll like a gish feat. That day is yet to come.

Bonus points for how utterly retarded it is to have a feat with a base ability of "your BAB is good, Merry Christmas".

If you want a Flash-and-Slash character, just make a class for it - or do the thing where a Wizard or Cleric casts the right spells to become a better warrior than any warrior class, and pick up a Spell-Storing weapon. If you want the very basic "I CUT AND CHANNEL SPELL" thing then just play a Duskblade. They're by no means great, but that's the one thing they exist to do. You could even take 3 Duskblade levels then switch into something else with better Touch Spells and buffs. But a feat isn't the answer to that problem.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:21 am

Giraffeking wrote:What do you think?

0: Your base attack bonus is now good.

NO.

A good measure of a feat is to ask yourself the question "Is there anyone who can benefit from this feat that will not take it?" You've made a feat that literally everyone who does not already have full base attack bonus and ever plans to take combat feats will take. With this feat in play, every rogue will be a Human, and take Gishy as their racial bonus feat, just so that they get all the benefits of murderous intent or sniper or whatever.

On the first ability alone, this feat should not exist.

Giraffeking · Post by **Giraffeking** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:14 am

Koumei wrote:
Giraffeking wrote: What do you think?
I think you should stop.

But I want so badly to make something that isn't terrible. So I keep trying.

I'll try again.

Gish-ish
Non-combat
You gain the Practiced Spell Caster Feat.
You also gain the Practiced Fighter Feat.
You also can store one spell in your weapon and cast it automatically on hit once per encounter.

The Practiced Fighter feat is like the Practiced Spell Caster feat: you can make up to 4 levels with 3/4 or poor BaB instead have good BaB.

So this is pretty good, but I don't think it's better than other Tome feats. A full fighter with one level in wizard could pretend to be a 5th level wizard (sorta) from the PSC feat, but he would have to give one level and one feat up for it, but not a fighter feat, it would have to be one from another source since it is not a combat feat.

But a Wizard could also gain up to +2 BaB which would help him land attacks better, but not perfectly. Not more often enough that he wouldn't need more levels in fighter.

And getting one free spell per encounter isn't enough to take this either, is it?

If this isn't good, I will go work on something else entirely.

Also, thanks for the input, Prak et al

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:46 am

In Tome, BAB is worth more than just increased hit chance. It determines who gets Edge during combat maneuvers. It was a specific design goal in Tome to make BAB matter more, such that people might justifiably alter their multiclass plan in order to get better BAB.

The Soldier is a martial class with 3/4 BAB. It makes up for that with special attack maneuvers. This is clearly a paradigm where taking feats to improve BAB is a dubious idea.

Giraffeking · Post by **Giraffeking** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:26 am

Avoraciopoctules wrote:In Tome, BAB is worth more than just increased hit chance. It determines who gets Edge during combat maneuvers. It was a specific design goal in Tome to make BAB matter more, such that people might justifiably alter their multiclass plan in order to get better BAB.

The Soldier is a martial class with 3/4 BAB. It makes up for that with special attack maneuvers. This is clearly a paradigm where taking feats to improve BAB is a dubious idea.

I see, but it's a max of +2 if you have 4 levels of poor BaB. You'd tied up if you had 4 levels of poor BaB and the rest good, and otherwise stay behind...

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:05 am

Or... you play a human rogue, take Gishy as your racial bonus feat, and benefit fully from every single combat feat you take and don't really give a shit that you're not getting the other benefits because it's improving literally every other feat you're likely to take. Nevermind the fact that the other benefits are also awesome for a rogue.
The rogue in question has 4 caster levels, and can thus take, oh, say, necromantic feats, so he gets a small army.
He can take a wand and store the spells into his weapons, so he can sneak attack someone and stab them with a fireball. Along with the usual sneak attack damage.
If the rogue gets the ability to cast spells, the next ability means that it can basically turn Invisibility into Improved Invisibility at the cost of two attacks, and if they're stabbing fucks with sneak attack fireballs, who the fuck cares. (bonus, I think they can technically stab people into invisibility. Imagine stabbing someone, turning the gurgling body invisible, and leaving the guard, or whatever, in plain sight, but unable to be found to be healed.)
Finally, the rogue, at sixteenth level sneak attacks with CL 20 Fireballs, or whatever, with every single attack.

Giraffeking · Post by **Giraffeking** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:52 am

Let me list the holes in your argument.

The rogue has 0 Caster Levels unless he takes a level in Wizard or some shit, which is 1 lost BaB. So he takes that, right? Ok.

He can't sneak attack with fireball, you can't spell store a fireball. The next comment makes no sense with the updated feat, so IDK what you're even talking about.

Finally, the sixteeth level rogue has caster level 4. Not 20. And he can't use fireball. Or hit on each attack, just once per encounter.

Obviously you didn't even read the updated version I made.

And the +1 you get from the feat by turning rogue BaB levels into full? Lost by taking a level in wizard for the spells. Although, you would likely replace the Wizard and then 3 rogue BaB progressions, resulting in a BaB of 4 at 4, and then progressing as a rogue form there on out.

So... Well, I guess you just didn't read. So I'll replace the original with the updated version to prevent your confusion.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:56 am

Ah, yes, I missed the updated one. Disregard.

Giraffeking · Post by **Giraffeking** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:02 am

We all make mistakes. I make several hundred a day, and that first gish attempt was an obvious one. So, don't worry, at least you're not as bad as me!

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:05 am

Adding +4 BAB to a Tome game is not a minor bonus. It does not mean you are just 20% more likely to hit a fool. It means you have the edge about 20% more often and your combat feat abilities come online four levels earlier (at least). As mentioned, the Tomes go out of their way to make a high BAB something people will actually care about, so you can't hand it out like Halloween candy. Tome feats give out bonuses for to-hit and damage, not straight to BAB. You want to make fighter/caster work, you probably want it to be a class rather than a feat.

Giraffeking · Post by **Giraffeking** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:17 am

I agree, but this feat doesnt give +4, it maxes at +2 for wizards. Which is 10% more likely. And at level 8 this has a sweet spot of being over powered, but before and after that is is less powerful. After that very much so, actually. After level 8 no long gives you additional benefits.

A note on the +2: You replace 4 BaB progress of wizard (which would be 2) with 4 of fighter, (which would be 4.) So since 4-2 = 2, the benfit is 2, not 4.

Rogues would only end up with +1.

So not exactly handing it out like Halloween candy. Unless you completely ditched wizard from level 8 on, you would fall behind in BaB again.

Note on level 8:
You could have 4 levels of WIzard, and 4 levels of FIghter, replace the BaB of Wizard with fighter to have a BaB of 8 instead of 6 (same as rogues!) And you could cast like a level 8 Wizard (except for spells per day, new spells learned and everything you care about in leveling a wizard, really.)

So, unless +2 bab and a permanent once per encounter 3rd level or lower spell is way more than the usual buff to feats to make them tome worthy, I don't see your problem. The first part of the feat is a core feat.

But by comparing core TWF to tome TWF, I don't think the power gap is as large in my feat as in that one.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:29 am

Practiced (whatever) does not work the way you seem to think it does. There's no replacement, you straight up get "+4 (thing), up to Hit Die"

Giraffeking · Post by **Giraffeking** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:34 am

The spell caster one yes, but not the practiced fighter. Because I made that up, and then listed it in the thread... where I made it up at... I should add it to the first post.

Spell caster is essentially + 4 caster level, but if you read on, it doesnt grant spells, slots, levels, or anything. It ups the saves, and up the ranges nd all that jazz that each actual spells get from higher caster levels. Like magic missile giving more missiles.

The replacement part comes from the fighter bit, which is stated as replacing poor or 3/4 BaB with good BaB up to 4 times or something.

Sorry if I am wording this poorly. Let me know if you understand.

Giraffeking · Post by **Giraffeking** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:38 am

Long winded explanation added.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:16 am

Practiced Fighter already exists, and your version is needlessly complicated (which is why I googled it to try and find a clearer explanation) which is a mark against it all on its own.

Since the bonus to 3/4 BAB classes is somewhat trivial, it's probable that at every level they can gain a feat they'll decide to take a new feat rather than have existing feats abilities come online one level early. Which means it's also probable that only casters will ever take this feat[1], in which case why on earth do they need even more boosts to caster level on top of the fact that it probably makes up 100% of their spell level? Spell storing is encounter-based, which means you have essentially infinite castings of third level spells at level 1, since the feat has no pre-requisites and everything comes online at once. And on the other hand, the feat dwindles in utility as third-level spells become increasingly less helpful.

If you want to make a character who's gish-like, make a fighter/caster class. Or make separate feats that make martial classes casty and caster classes martial. Trying to make one feat that gives Fighters Wizard-flavor and gives Wizards Fighter-flavor means that it's actually half-useless to both Fighters and Wizards.

[1]Or other 1/2 BAB classes. Or any class who knows the game won't last past level 6 or so and wants to be able to cast Stinking Cloud from level 1 (and maybe they get +1 BAB as icing).

Giraffeking · Post by **Giraffeking** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:07 am

Ok, so I used the name of a feat in existence already. Replace the +4 with +2 and call it a day then.

Tell me how you are going to store a level 3 spell at level one? Some kind of gypsy magic I donno about? But sure, if you can cast an unlimited number of level 3 spells at level one, you can store an unlimited number of them. Not sure how that makes MY feat th game breaker. Unless spell storing also doesn't work the way I understand it to.

Pretty sure you cast the spell into the weapon and it hold onto it until you smack a fool with it.

So yet again, your complaints hold no merit, let alone make any sense. The feats you did tell me to make already exist, but are scorned pretty badly by most people, I think.

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50076& ... c&start=25

That has the mage to fighter, and the OP is fighter to mage.

I'm pretty sure mine is much more balanced. It basically lets your spells continue to hit, and you weapons continue to hit moderately well. Making you able to either with some effectiveness, but past level 8 neither with full effectiveness. If you wanted to argue it needed caveats, I might consider.

But all you do is bring up issues that are non-issues.

Only casters will take the feat? Good, then it's just like 95% of all feats, only one type of person will use it. When you see a rogue with Arcane Boring you let me know, ok? Or an archer with TWF. Or a sword swing barbarian who decided they need point blank shot.

Why do casters need the bonus to spells? Because gish dip into fighter or barbarian or something to get cool toys for meleeing people. But they dont want that to make them start failing to hit people or have them resist everything. The bonus basically says: "Take 4 levels in something else and your spells will still be up to snuff bypassing spell resistance, still have the same level of saves and same bonuses to effects! You will just have fewer spells than if you hadn't." But as a gish, they wouldnt mind, right?

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:08 am

Quick build: 1 level of Tome Fighter, 1 level of Wizard, Tome Eldritch Knight X, this feat. That gives you full BaB, full caster level, 1 level of spellcasting lost, proficiency in all weapons and armor, cast in heavy armor, Combat Sense and Arcane Strike, and a Spell storing weapon. You get full vaue from Combat Feats and can still fly and teleport like a muthafucka.

Why does this feat need to exist again?

Giraffeking · Post by **Giraffeking** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:18 am

Tome Eldritch knight has shit for spell progression. Medium means you are behind by a lot and never even touch high level spells. You could cast level 1 wizard spells with a caster level of 5. You would have full BaB. You would have Eldritch Knight Features.

I have no idea why you took a level in fighter, but I guess you learn any weapon you want, whoopie!

You can't fly, you can't teleport. You can't do shit. Red, you need to learn to read, badly. Eldritch Knight also has a spell list he draws from. And it sucks. In fact, the Eldritch Knight is the perfect example of why my feat is good. Because Gish classes suck.

Giraffeking · Post by **Giraffeking** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:21 am

I'mma go to bed, hopefully you can take your time and read what you say before you post. I don't need to refute every bit of bad logic and simple falsehoods you can manufacture. If there is something bad with my update, you have yet to touch on it.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:34 am

Which Eldritch Knight are you referring to? I was meaning the one included in the Tome pdf compilation, which I thought was pretty much the accepted list of Tome classes. That one advances your Wizard casting every level, I can only assume you mean some other Eldritch Knight.

Also, Combat Sense allows you to reroll any one dice you want, every turn. You need a martial class to qualify for Eldritch knight, so basically you need to pick a first level ability that will always be useful, and Combat Sense fits the bill.

Giraffeking · Post by **Giraffeking** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:51 am

I was referring to the one on this website, on the list that is stickied here. Looking over this, it looks like you don't need my feat if you become an eldritch Knight. all you gain is 1 lost caster level and 1 level BaB. Oh and spell storing, so you can use one spell per encounter free.

Which might still be worth it. But what if you didn't want to be an Eldritch Knight? Just because you have one gish option doesn't mean you shouldn't have more.

If that logic made sense, then we would not have as many classes in the first place. We'd have one melee attacker, one healer, one wizard, one ranged attacker and one stealthy guy and MAYBE combinations of them if we were lucky. Variety is good, for your diet and for dnd.

And now I am going to bed.

The Gaming Den

Gish-esq Feat

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